does anyone have any info on any dissident theories that explain the seroconversion phenomena?
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Re: seroconversion
Fri, August 10, 2007 - 3:43 PMWhat is this phenomenon exactly?
If you are talking about people going from positive to negative, that is due to the fact that the tests are not specific or consistent between laboratories. The same sample of blood can get different test results at different labs. There are 70+ conditions that can cause false positives on the HIV tests, and so your blood can test positive one day and then a few months later it can test negative. Drug use, contact with semen, pregnancy, and other infections are all things that can cause a false positive antibody test. Christine Maggiore had the experience of going from positive to negative to undetermined, and that's one of things that lead her to question the HIV=AIDS dogma and start her organization, Alive & Well.
David -
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Re: seroconversion
Mon, August 13, 2007 - 2:58 PMthanks for the reply david. i'm specifically referring to the phenomena of acute seroconversion, which is an initial sickness/set of symptoms that supposedly indicates ground zero of an hiv infection. the following is a quote from aids.about.com/cs/conditi...yndrome.htm
"Since those early years of HIV, acute HIV syndrome can now be identified in 30-50% of newly HIV infected individuals during seroconversion. During the initial period of infection, HIV replication is very rapid. As the level of HIV in the blood rises, it begins to attack the immune system, catching it off guard so to speak, and weakening it to the point of causing symptoms. Because of its similarity to common illnesses such as influenza or mononucleosis, the diagnosis of acute HIV syndrome is often missed and the patient is sent home unaware that they have a serious illness that can do great harm to themselves and others. Medical professionals have a responsibility to properly identify this syndrome for two very important reasons."
what you're referring to is called seroREVERSON, not seroCONVERSION. what i'm asking is if anyone has any dissident literature that attempts to explain the phenomena, and why some people have an initial illness with nearly identical symptoms and subsequently test positive for hiv. -
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Re: seroconversion
Wed, August 15, 2007 - 2:53 AMSouljah, you can get some info here:
aliveandwell.org
Christine (if she has the time) has been very good about responding to personal questions. She's very sweet and easy to approach.
Also, write to Stephen Davis: stephen@theAIDStrial.com
Terry -
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Re: seroconversion
Wed, August 15, 2007 - 12:07 PMthank for the info terry!
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Re: seroconversion
Sat, August 18, 2007 - 2:32 PMSoul,
Oh, I see what you are talking about now.
Um, people get sick sometimes... ?
If you get sick and test positive, getting sick is the "seroconversion phenomenon".
If you get sick and test negative, you just got sick. It happens to regular people all the time.
The revealing thing is that not everyone who tests positive goes through a "seroconversion phenomenon", although I'm sure for many people finding out that they are positive is impetus enough for them to become ill.
david -
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Re: seroconversion
Sun, August 19, 2007 - 11:21 PMYeah, interesting thought, that, that we might be worse off due to our fears and anxieties? Nah!!! Couldn't be. And the way the "news" is told to most people who find themselves with a "poz" diagnosis couldn't be aiding potential illness, now could it? Sorry to sound bitter. Just thinking of my own experiences...
Hope that other folk are hearing different stuff, but seems unlikely. I still get told the same old shit on the rare occasion I go to the Clinic. It amazes me how unable they've been, with me anyway, to think outside the standard rhetoric box. Especially bearing in mind exactly NONE of my ill health was hiv or aids related, even by their own admission... *sigh*
A special "Hey" to you, David. Cuz you've addressed me before. Thanks for your input and comeraderie! -
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Re: seroconversion
Mon, September 24, 2007 - 2:30 PMthis whole thread is almost as entertaining as the responses i got from some of the top dissident advocates. what i think people are failing to understand here is the question i'm posing: people are getting sick. call it a nonspecific illness, call it seroconversion, call it a green eyed purple people eater if you want, but people are experiencing an illness unlike any they've ever experienced, and subsequently receiving a positive test result. if you're reading this and have no idea what i'm referring to, then don't respond, because this is not directed at you.
if you talk to people who have received positive test results, many of them will tell you that they experienced an initial illness, and if you talk to enough of them, you'll begin to see a pattern as far as symptomology goes.
the dissident advocates i spoke to were about as cunty as can be, and wouldn't give me any useful information because i wasn't thoroughly versed in words and phrases that were ok and not ok to use around them. i find it kind of asinine to be a crusader on such a topic and then refuse to assist people who are honestly looking for information. i'm sure they get countless emails from people trying to debunk them, but a line has to be drawn somewhere.
so once again, i ask anyone who actually has knowledge on this subject: what is your explanation for the nonspecific illness many people experience, with similar sets of symptoms, which is unlike any other disease symptomology in both intensity and types of symptoms. why do you think these people experience this illness and subsequently test positive? and once again, let me restate, i'm not trying to debunk the theory that hiv does not cause aids, i'm trying to gather information.
please and thank you. -
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Re: seroconversion
Tue, September 25, 2007 - 8:25 AMSouljah,
I'm sorry you've had some bad experiences with dissidents. I know that when people feel passionately about something they feel is important, it's easy for people on either side to get angry and frustrated and dismissive. Personally, I think it's important to recognize our emotions, feel and express them, and then to set them aside, because strong emotions make it difficult to see the situation clearly.
I hope that you find the information that you're looking for.
Be well,
David Ray
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Re: seroconversion
Tue, September 25, 2007 - 9:02 AMThe most rational explanation is that AIDS (and seroconversion illness) are autoimmune disorders, when the TH2 system goes haywire resulting in allergies and flu-like symptoms, eventually if unchecked leading to wasting disease and mitochondrial/metabolic exhaustion.
Read up on Drs. Alfred Hässig and Heinrich Kremer for more info. So-called "HIV antibodies" are reactive to cellular structural proteins (e.g. actin and myosin) -
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Re: seroconversion
Tue, September 25, 2007 - 6:19 PM"if you talk to people who have received positive test results, many of them will tell you that they experienced an initial illness, and if you talk to enough of them, you'll begin to see a pattern as far as symptomology goes."
People, regardless if they are hetero or gay or bi, do get ill. The panic starts if a gay person has an illness (gay people get ill just like any other person), and it's immediately assumed he could be pos, and thus, the treatable aliment is sometimes over looked, in favor of being pos. If a hetero person (who fits into the paradigm of the CDC) has those same illness, then he or she would likely be treated only for that illness and not be forced to be tested.
Even before aids came on the market, gay people got the same illness as any other person and was treated for that illness. Now, it's just assumed he's pos, and once test, yes, the results can or will show up as pos, because the test 'may' cross react to the real culprit.
A gay person (on the CDC high risk list) should demand to be treated for their illness, according to symtoms, and not forced to get tested, because the results are normally on a path to coming out pos. STD's can show up on those test as pos so, it is to a person's full advantage to have a full check-up because if it goes untreated, the problems can and will become what is known as aids. If pushed in a corner to get tested, if STD results show up pos, decided (according to what you know about the dissidents view on hiv) if that's what you want to do.
Terry -
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Unsu...
Re: seroconversion
Wed, September 26, 2007 - 5:33 AMHey,
Yea, I would have to agree with Terry here. People get sick. More and more people around the world are getting symptoms which doctors just cant explain. Some people are just thought to be hypochondriacs by allopaths because they simply cant explain whats going on. People who get tested positive simply think they have a reason for it. People like explainations. Its only natural. If something unpleasant is going on in our bodies, we want to know what it is.
People are just living unnatural lifestyles and theres only so much we can push the bodies limitations before it starts to let us know that its struggling.
HIV offers people desperate for an explanation, an explaination. Unfortunately its the most disempowering, frightening and potentially unnecessary explaination there is.
Thats my take on it anyway.
Adam x -
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This is the maximum depth. Additional responses will not be threaded.
Re: seroconversion
Tue, January 8, 2008 - 11:10 PMYeah I am one of those anomolies... Never been sick... Tested poz while pregnant with my second child... (along with having a poz herpes 1 test even though I don't have it now) never been sick nor have my children or my so called possibly exposed daughter in two years of her life. My Western Blots were totally inconsistent and I watched them like a hawk... Reactive one minute, indeterminate the next, reactive the next...
My son and I haven't been sick in six years since we were living in a house with mold... despite living in Africa for the last three of those. I have remained undetectable for almost two years since diagnosis... though accupuncture once gave me a blip... and was told during my previous pregnancy that they had ruled out a false poz. Which according to the CDC whom I phoned twice on the matter says is impossible to do while pregnant even with a western blot.
I have also been doing alot of study on the rate of false positives... the numbers and fears of incidences vary from country to country. I have even found financial projections from the NIH on the National Library of Health site... and questions about mandatory wide range testing and such talk about the financial risk of false positives in low risk populations through the imposition of wide range testing... Something to the degree of a much higher potential for false positives in low risk populations... (What the hell does that mean? If you are high risk we're sure you got it... but if you are low risk its alot more possible you don't ... despite a positive test... what? and this is from the NIH)
My research is all done within the current paradgm... the debaters simply affirm my findings. As I tend to question both sides of a coin.
I say to anyone who gets tested... LIE... Tell them you are straight, in a monogamous relationship, are not promiscuous, have never used recreational drugs, have never had an STD... because I am truly concerned simply exposing the possibility of being in a risk group allows the potential for the result. My risk group was having sex once with a man in South Africa. And the intake woman told me clearly not to give them too much information while I was in the process of expressing my concerns of the possibility and requesting a test.
As a matter of fact if you have tested pos try the lie in an anonymous test and see what happens. Apparently a gay man did that and said he was married and monogamous and got a negative result.
I agree... its a totally natural thing for a body that has been exposed to numerous stressors to break down. Is it a disease? Or a byproduct. A byproduct of our increasingly changing environments, food supply, water supply, overprescribed pharmacueticals, heightened recreational drug use, and harder more dangerous recreational drugs, stress from a crumbling economy and political structure.
I dunno... all I know is the people that will not open up the debate look pretty guilty in my eyes... I mean really if the current paradigm is so right about thier perspective why are they so unwilling to debate it? This is what causes me the most concern and curiosity about the validity of the debators... you know if they could prove it... all those doctors and scientists that question would have been sued and had there liscences revoked.
I'm sorry there is logic in AIDS, but there is no logic in HIV. I have a broken immune system... no wait... I'm super immune... how contradictory is that... and how is that possible? I have five years to live... no wait... I may never actually even deal with this virus... They've ruled out the false positive... no wait... there is no way to rule out the false positive.
CAN I PLEASE HAVE A LITTLE CONSISTENCY THIS IS MY LIFE WE ARE TALKING ABOUT!
Unfortunately the debators have some serious logic in what they propose not to mention they are consistent.
To top that they have everything to lose with thier perspective and nothing to gain...
and those on the otherside have everything to lose because of how much they have gained. Starting simply with thier jobs and funding not to mention profits from the patents and pharmacuetical interests. Along with getting rid of welfare moms, homosexuals, prison inmates, drug addicts, and minority groups.
The debators gave all that up on scientific principle. Can't get funding even though many of them had recieved awards and huge amounts of funding and notoriety prior to thier questioning. Everytime someone tells me they have no credibility and are quacks... I go and research thier credibility. Nobel Prize laureates, Professors of Microbiology/Virology/Pathology still with professional standing in High Ranking colleges, (these guys know more about virus than my doctor does and believe me I have asked him) Doctors in medical practice, (ones who can explain the DNA and Mitocondria unlike my personal practicioner in charge of prescribing drugs that affect the DNA and the mitocondria not to mention they also state they know so little about the immune system when I ask why they don't build the immune system to try and fight the disease rather than try to kill very elusive virus with drugs) Then on top of that thier are soooo many within the current research paradigm and hypothesis who admit that the drugs are toxic and that we need alternatives, and that they only benefit 35% of thier patients. Which means there are 65% of thier patients that do not fit the traditional virus standard that would have a positive response to the treatment. They admit that thier is so much they don't know yet they constantly subject us to thier experiments often through coersion and in regards to pregnant mother through force even.
I still want answers as to the fact that the gay pride movement, the drug war, crack cocaine, and the AIDS virus all hit simultaneously at the same time. There must be something to that.
Who would you trust or deem somewhat credible... The guy willing to stake his entire career on an idea... or the guy who constantly avoids your questions?
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Re: seroconversion
Fri, April 11, 2008 - 5:26 PMi like your honesty in expressing the tendency 'advocate insiders' have, with regard to speaking with outsiders who dont yet understand all the LINGO that comes with any new paradigm.
in another circle, i was so frustrated at the people who kept screaming at me, BUILDING SEVEN BUILDING SEVEN, but refused to recognise that until they explained it to me, i had no clue. it turned me off. bad approach.
so, let me take a stab at this seroconversion thing, and of course, because im also interested in the same question, I'll join your search and help you find what you're looking for, if i can.
people are sick. there is no doubt about it. SOMETHING is happening to them, and like you say, they feel the symptoms of SOMETHING, and then bingo, they get a poz test. as i understand it, YOU seem to recognise that the hiv test may be bogus, but this does not change the fact that during what is called by the orthodoxy 'seroconversion', the night sweats and symptoms are very real!
now ive asked myself the same thing? if its all a big lie, then why are people feeling real clinical symptoms.
ive come to understand that if my immune system is tanking over and failing, or in distress, yes, my body will react. to me, this was always satisfactory enough explaination for the seroconversion phenomina. my personal opinion has been that seroconversion is just AN ILLNESS, whatever illness, any illness, that manifests at the initial stage when your immunity is challenged. in my case, when i was 17-18, i had a nasty encounter with syphillis. they treated me for syph and that was the end of it.
years later, i was very run down and my health was suffering. i was losing weight, drenched in night sweats, and malnourished. i was over worked, (14 hour shifts in a restaurant) and of course an osteomylitis (bone infection) was setting into the metal plates they used in my hip and femur after a car accident years prior. what i took at the time to be 'my seroconversion', turns out now that i know better, to be nothing more than the onset of the osteomylitis.
i suppose im sort of believing without any real reason to believe so, that seroconversion, when it happens, is 'onset' of something that is only MIS NAMED as hiv seroconversion, especially now that we know that everything under the sun will 'appear as a pos test result'
is there really an hiv seroconversion or are they simply exhibiting symptoms of some OTHER onset of illness, or general decline of immunity having nothing to do with hiv?
now that you pose the question the way you do, im very curious to actually FIND something from the dissident viewpoint that explains it.
thanks for your post.
-taoe
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Re: seroconversion
Sat, April 12, 2008 - 1:31 AMindeed, when i tested poz they asked me about the seroconversion... they said think back, have you been ill with a fever or something similar in the last year.... well hello, with that being the basis for seroconversion then half the planet can put its hand up.
we get ill! what doctors do though is turn some random illness into a "seroconversion" moment to back up they whole hiv/aids hysteria. its total BS. if you ask someone who just been told they have hiv, folk who are stressed out, ask them to think back... well i tell you the human psyche will create an illness or build up a minor illness, either that or the doctor will. personally i never had a fever so where does that leave me? but when i asked what impact being ill with lyme disease had on results, he didnt know or dismissed it. there you have it, if your ill and it "fits" with a hiv hypothesis then they build it up as an indicator. if not then they ignor it regardless of all its obvious importance.
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